<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class="gmail_sendername">Hare, Ed W1RFI</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:w1rfi@arrl.org">w1rfi@arrl.org</a>></span><br>Date: 2010/1/16<br>
Subject: RE: [BPLandHamRadio] Re: Claims that Australian broadband powerline regulations breach WTO treaties<br>To: <a href="mailto:BPLandHamRadio@yahoogroups.com">BPLandHamRadio@yahoogroups.com</a><br><br><br>
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<div dir="ltr"><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Arial">That should still hold when we have more sunspots, perhaps even more so.</font></div>
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<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">The testing done involved turning off the carriers in the broadcast band when the modem detected strong signals from SW BC stations. When those carriers were turned off, in three of four cases tested, the data rate the modems could achieve dropped by no more than a few percent. My conclusion from those results was that the tradeoff was a reasonable one -- by notching as needed to protect licensed reception, the BPL system can continue to function.</font></div>
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<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">In the fourth case, the data rate *increased* when the adaptive notching was turned on! My speculation is that the strong BC signals were interfering with the modem. Those carriers were already lost to the system, and the overhead of trying to reconstruct the data stream from the other available carriers did chew up some of the data rate. When the unsuable carriers were no longer used, the system did not need to try to rebuild the data stream, and the speed improved slightly.</font></div>
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<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">No matter which way you look at it, turning off carriers to avoid local licensed users is a useful tool to allow BPL to deploy successfully. IMHO, the nature of the Amateur Radio Service is such that the carriers should be permanently notched. This is a model used by HomePlug, the Home Phone Networking Alliance and the newer high-speed DSL services. The broadcasters are apparently satisfied that adaptive notching can protect the shortwave broadcast bands. The Citizens Band allocations should also be notched. Other local use can probably be identified from licensing databases and notched as needed.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">One need only look at the results to see that interference problems harmed the BPL industry. To quote John Joyce, the CEO of the Ambient Corporation: </font></div>
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<div dir="ltr">"BPL does not perform well in the overhead U.S. electrical distribution topology, and thus today a BPL signal cannot communicate over long distances or through a transformer without couplers and repeaters to boost the signal. This additional equipment increases overall deployment costs and eliminates cost savings associated with using the existing wires. . . There are further problems in transmitting BPL signals over power lines, including interference issues caused and experienced by a BPL system. Overhead electrical distribution wires are unshielded from radio frequency (RF) interference, therefore, BPL signals traveling on medium-voltage overhead lines have the potential to interfere with shortwave radio operators. Local RF using unlicensed spectrum also can interfere with the BPL network signal, and because the spectrum is unlicensed, mitigation can be timely and costly." </div>
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<div dir="ltr"><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Arial">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">I and many other hams raised those issues early on. Those concerns were met with absolute denial. The result is as seen above, and BPL systems that could have been showpieces were instead shut down by utilities, often at considerable cost. (IDACorp shut down IDAComm and announced that its foray into BPL cost it $10M US.) Those same hams worked hard to help this industry resolve those problems. At this point, we know what works. It doesn't appear that the industry, however, has really learned from the lessons of the past, because even after all this, even after having solutions at hand that have the support of licensed radio users, it systematically avoids incorporating those good solutions into regulation and standards that could help everyone feel that the past is behind them. </font></div>
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<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">The food fights in the IEEE P1775 EMC standard group go on to this day, where the group would not include a number of key points that the industry is already doing as standard practice. The result is that the IEEE EMC Society, a co-sponsor of the standard, provided comments to the Working Group during the balloting process, to try to help it understand some of the EMC issues that are not done correctly in the standard. If the WG doesn't take that seriously, the end result will be another opportunity lost, as there will be a standard that doesn't have the support of the very stakeholders the standard is intended to serve. The BPL industry has bemoaned that the lack of standards has held it back. Yet it is developing a standard that does NOT have the support of key stakeholders. A standard that serves to deepen the chasm that separates stakeholders is, in some ways, worse than no standard at all. </font></div>
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<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">The ironic part is that there are a number of BPL companies that have been leaders in trying to address interference. IBEC and Current Technologies come to mind. Yet these very companies are also leaders in trying to keep that successful model out of the regulations and standards that are still under development. Current's staff have been very active in P1775, fighting fiercely to keep notching, notch depth and limits out of the standard. IBEC has consistently voted the same way.</font></div>
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<div dir="ltr">We all know what works:</div>
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<div dir="ltr">1. Notch the ham bands.</div>
<div dir="ltr">2. Do so with state of the art filtering of -35 dB.</div>
<div dir="ltr">3. Measure systems correctly. to ensure that the system does not exceed the emissions limits. This requires a scientifically justified, not politically justified, extrapolation factor.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">I have seen this work, and reported so publicly. In Houston, the BPL system was notched to protect the ham bands and I did not see widespread interference, just a few dB (very few) of BPL noise directly under a few injection points. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>Take this successful model and turn it into good regulation and standards. This will help all stakeholders and finally allow the spectre of interference to be put back in the box. The industry can then find its natural place in access BPL and smart-grid deployments.</div>
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<div><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial">73,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Ed Hare, W1RFI<br>ARRL Laboratory Manager</font></div><div class="im">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">225 Main St</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Newington, CT 06111</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Tel: 860-594-0318</font></div>
</div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">Email: <a href="mailto:W1RFI@arrl.org" target="_blank">W1RFI@arrl.org</a></font></div></div>
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<font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Barry White [mailto:<a href="mailto:bewhite@bigpond.net.au" target="_blank">bewhite@bigpond.net.au</a>]<br><b>Sent:</b> Fri 1/15/2010 11:28 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:BPLandHamRadio@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">BPLandHamRadio@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [BPLandHamRadio] Re: Claims that Australian broadband powerline regulations breach WTO treaties<br></font><br></div><div class="im">
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<p>Hello Ed,<br> I noted this comment from your response;<br>
</p><blockquote type="cite"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">An ETSI study (<font color="#000000">ETSI TR 102616) s</font>hows that adaptive notching used to protect HF SW BC did not have a major effect on data rates.</font></span></blockquote>
Do you think this will be still valid when the sunspot cycle gets back to normal ?<br>Here in Australia we have very strong signals from many Asian SW BC stations in normal times on a north south path.<br><br>73 Barry VK2AAB<br>
<br><br>Hare, Ed W1RFI wrote:
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<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">Hi, Glenn,</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">My main role in that filing was to prepare Exhibit A. My usual technique is to provide whatever technical paper may be appropriate, and separately, offer my input to Chris on the remainder of the filing. The major points in Imlay's work were the legal points he raised, though. I do offer some views on that once in a while, but Chris is much smarter at that than I am.</font></span></div>
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</div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Best 73 from: regards from: CT4RK Carlos Mourato - Sines - Portugal<br><br> Save the Radio Spectrum! Eliminate Broadband over Power Line. Salve o espectro electromagnético!. Não use a rede electrica para transmitir dados. Os "homeplugs power line" e a tecnologia "power line" causa fortes interferencias noutro serviços sem voce se aperceber. Diga não à tecnologia power line. Proteja o ambiente<br>
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